MARCH 26, 2012
LANDMARKS AND HISTORIC DISTRICT COMMISSION
MINUTES

The Landmark and Historic District Commission (LHDC) of the City of Florissant met at the Florissant City Hall on Monday March 26, 2012 in the second floor cafeteria room at 6:30 p.m., with Kent Miller presiding.
 
INTRODUCTION AND WELCOME

ROLL CALL

On roll call the following members were present: Howard Nimmons, Kent Miller, Edward Keil, Gretchen Crank. Also in attendance were Dianne Lehmann, Recording Clerk and Philip Lum, Building Commissioner of Florissant. A quorum being present, the Chair declared the Landmark and Historic District Commission (LHDC) was in session for the transaction of business.

APPROVAL OF 2/26/2012 MINUTES

Kent  Miller asked if there were any additions, changes or corrections to the minutes. Being none, Howard Nimmons made a motion to accept the minutes as submitted. Seconded by Ed Keill, all members concurred. Minutes approved as submitted.

OLD BUSINESS

 

Item 2             Discuss 2012 Archeological Planning and Outreach Grant application.

Phil Lum stated that he had a response from Joann Radetic and that the grant from 2011 may be funded with next years money due to the amount of time that has elapsed. All information has been submitted for the 2012 grant. A few items had to be resubmitted with signatures but everything has been submitted. We did get credit for school presentations. At the request of DNR Mr. Lum is working with Kim Emerson, Florissant IT Director, to get all information on one central web site that is being created by her staff.  The 2012 grant has been accepted as submitted and the DNR is looking for ways to fund this project.  

Item 1             Review powers and duties of LHDC and review ordinances that changed                                LHDC to a form of certified local government.

Kent Miller asked what questions the commission had regarding the change of LHDC to a form of local certified government. He asked Gretchen if she had specific concerns and she answered that she wasn’t prepared tonight with those questions.

MISCELLANEOUS BUSINESS

Item 1             Repainting of Re-designated Landmarks

Phil Lum said the changes in responsibilities of LHDC led him to make the decision regarding painting of another landmark property and what exactly the responsibility of LHDC was.  Phil suggested that we look at the request from the Peters House to repaint to be a good starting point for LHDC to examine the duties and formulate a procedure on other landmark inquires. Phil said he thought Gretchen’s concerns were not to change the commission but to clarify the powers and duties of the commission as it is today. Gretchen said she understood that the Landmarks and Old Town commission were to combine responsibilities and to be one called the Landmark Historic
District Commission.  It was the opinion of Gretchen that in 1998 when this new commission was formed Council did not accept the old Landmarks commission’s recommendations. Those responsibilities were not made clear to Gretchen. Kent Miller said that he has been involved since the beginning of the merge and his understanding was the responsibilities followed the guidelines of the state. Kent said that he understood that a lot of the enforcement of guidelines  are still there but they fall to the office of the Building Commissioner .  It is his responsibility to refer anything requiring a variance to the commission. It would be up to the commission to determine whether a COA would be required or any other special needs are applicable.

Phil concurred that his interpretation of the council was for the Building Commissioner to be responsibly for screening requests for changes to landmark properties. Phil also stated that with his background in architecture he would always error on the side of caution and if he was unsure of a request he would always bring that request to the commission for further review. If he felt a COA was not necessary he would not bring that request to the commission for discussion or approval.  Phil also stated that he understood the commission responsibility to only apply to those projects that require a permit that has been issued from the City of Florissant. Only those items that may affect the architecture of the building should be considered. That is why in the Shrine project Phil said that disturbance of the grounds did affect the architectural structure and surroundings of the building and must have a COA from LHDC. He also said that if he is aware of any landmark property doing work with or without permits that changes the architecture of the building he will immediately post a stop work order on that property until the LHDC can review that action. That being said, any building permit that changes the exterior appearance of a landmark property will be brought to the commission for a COA. Phil also expressed his concerns about roofing landmark properties in that roof replacement does not require a permit.  He gave an example of the slate roof at the Shrine and that to replace the roof with something other than slate would definitely change the outward appearance of the building.  Phil also stated not to pick on the Shrine, but he would place a stop work order on any project that changed the appearance of the exterior of that property just as he did with the dig that was going on.  He also said on a different note that Geri Debo met him down at the Shrine with the archeologists that were filling in the hole.  Geri Debo told Phil that the whole attitude down at the Shrine has changed and people were looking at them in a different light and people were finally starting to donate again. She also said that the Shrine board felt that they were finally headed in the right direction and they were making money.  Phil said that for a long time he felt like the bad cop putting a stop work order on the dig but now board members of the Shrine understand that the City and LHDC only wanted things done correctly and according to archeological guidelines. The lessons learned is that we used a cooperative spirit to get this problem resolved and the outcome was positive and this is a success story. Phil also said that we need to keep things moving in positive direction.  Phil said we have started a process that if a permit is required it will be brought to the commission or if no permit is required but questions arise about the changes that too will be brought to the commission.  This will be a two step process by the building department and Building Commissioner. 

Kent Miller said that in addition LHDC does have the power, by written request of the majority of the city council, to change our jurisdiction or obtain more power.  This must go before city council.  Gretchen said she felt this is something that needed to be done and would require extra meetings. Gretchen asked if this commission was not still considered an advisory commission to planning and zoning.  Phil responded that the Old Town Commission had to review every permit that went before planning & zoning. Gretchen said that both Old Town and Landmarks were advisors to planning & zoning.  Ed Keil said that they used to send a representative to all planning & zoning meetings. Phil clarified by telling them that the bylaws stated that every permitted project in Old Town went before Old Town and Landmarks Commissions.  All projects in Old Town were subject to this review, not just landmark properties. The revised commission only reviews re-designated landmark properties permit applications. Grethen asked if LHDC had no historic district part to this commission.  Gretchen expressed concern that the historic district was not being regulated as it once was and asked if the commission wanted to revisit their duties to the historic district and bring that recommendation to the council. Kent agreed but stated that a limit should be placed on the requests made by LHDC to council regarding changes. The committee discussed color chart changes that could possibly be regulated throughout the entire historic district. Phil said LHDC only has jurisdiction on re-designated landmark houses which is only about 50 houses. Phil said the number of properties in the historic district both commercial and residential will be significantly higher than the 55 or so houses that have been re-designated. Phil did agree that the historic district could be compromised and we could see more pink ramps if we didn’t do something or consider other options.

Gretchen asked about the possibility of bringing back the Old Town Commission.  Phil said it would be up to the commission to bring this to first planning & zoning then to council. Gretchen suggested to use the old guidelines, understanding that certain things would have to be grandfathered. Phil talked about doing what is best for the historic district. Kent Miller suggested that Gretchen be the representative from LHDC to meet with the council person, Pat Stennitt, about the possibility of resurrecting an Old Town Commission or something similar.

Phil suggested that this committee put together a sub committee and ask Pat Stennitt to be a part of that committee to discuss concerns about the historic district. Kent asked Gretchen to contact Pat Stennitt to see if there will be support for this project. 

Dianne Lehmann asked if one of the duties that LHDC was not currently working on was to           encourage possible re-designation of those historic properties that have not re-designated. She also said that she thought there was a definite advantage to having a larger support group. Gretchen and Phil both agreed this is a part of the process but an even greater issue is the jurisdiction and process that is currently in place.  All agreed that with the success of the Archeological presentation that now is the time to pursue these endeavors.

Discussion was had about the regulations that the historic district has in place and that what the commission needs to know is if they have jurisdiction to monitor and request that these guidelines be enforced.  Ed Kiel asked the commission to refer to the actual powers and duties of LHDC. He said that in the code it talks extensively about the historic district.  Howard spoke about how this commission was very instrumental in the decision making about the new properties including the Steve Robbins building that was built. Howard questioned why we are now being limited to only re-designated landmark properties. Phil said this is a direct result of his conversation with our City attorney. At this time the commission went through the powers and duties of the commission and discussed each one. Phil again said that upon his appointment to this commission he met with the City attorney and it was his understanding from the City attorney that LHDC only had jurisdiction over re-designated properties. During this time all houses currently designated as landmarks had the opportunity to opt out of that landmark designation and over 50 did so.  Phil also confirmed this with Joann Radectic, and she confirmed that this was not a decision made at the state level but a decision made at the local level. Phil encouraged all commission members to reread the code.  He has reread the code after the commission was re-established and does not find that same set of powers and duties applicable to LHDC as it is now.

Gretchen said that when they reviewed the 25 or so powers and duties of the commission it seemed overwhelming but she does remember that the commission was informed that their responsibility not only lie with the current historic district but to future areas of the City that might some day be considered landmark. Phil said that the commission might want to review the comprehensive plan and review any plans that they have to expand or change the historic district.

Phil said that he can only enforce the code as it is written.  He said that he does the best of his ability to refer any and all applicable properties to the commission.  Phil said the painting of these recent homes prompted him to review that we only have two color schemes, they are  pre 1900 and 1900’s  and Victorian.  Gretchen said that maybe the commission should be reviewing the color charts every 5 years and inquiring how other historic French towns deal with this review.

Phil also talked about permitted use in historic Florissant.  After a recent permit request from a current business in the historic business it prompted Planning & Zoning to review all allowable businesses in historic Florissant. Planning & Zoning will continue to review this in the future.  Phil said Planning & Zoning will be looking to LHDC for a recommendation to approve the rewritten permitted uses in the historic business district.

Kent Miller asked if the commission was in agreement that Gretchen should meet with Mr. Stinnett..  All were in agreement.  Kent asked if Phil had made a decision approving the colors used for painting the Peters house.  Phil stated he had made a decision and that no COA would be required as the colors were similar to those in the current color chart that LHDC has on file and this color change would not affect the historic nature of the building.

Kent Miller asked that someone make a motion to continue the discussion regarding powers and duties of the LHDC as much more discussion will be needed. Howard made a motion to continue, motion was seconded by Gretchen and all approved. Review of powers and duties of LHDC is continued.

 

ANNOUNCEMENTS / COMMENTS

No announcements or comments.

Mr. Miller asked if there was any further business. Being no further business Mr. Miller stated he would entertain a motion to adjourn. Howard Nimmons made a motion to adjourn, seconded by Gretchen Crank. All members concurred. Meeting was adjourned.

 

Respectfully submitted:

 

Dianne Lehmann,
Recording Clerk