FEBRUARY 28, 2011
LANDMARKS AND HISTORIC DISTRICT COMMISSION
MINUTES
The Landmark and Historic District Commission (LHDC) of the City of Florissant met at the Florissant City Hall on Monday February 28, 2011 in the second floor cafeteria room at 6:40 p.m., with Howard Nimmons presiding.
INTRODUCTION AND WELCOME
ROLL CALL
On roll call the following members were present: Gary Meyer, Howard Nimmons, Kent Miller , Edward Keil, Curtis Gunn, Terri O’Neal & Gretchen Crank. Also in attendance were Dianne Lehmann, Recording Clerk and Bill White, Deputy Building Commissioner of Florissant. A quorum being present, the Chair declared the Landmark and Historic District Commission (LHDC) was in session for the transaction of business.
APPROVAL OF 1/24//2011 MINUTES
Mr. Nimmons asked if there were any additions, changes or corrections to the minutes. Being none, Mr. Meyer made a motion to accept the minutes as submitted. Seconded by Mr. Keil, all members concurred. Minutes approved as submitted.
OLD BUSINESS
NEW BUSINESS
Item 1 #1 St Ferdinand Rep. By: Geri Debo, Rob Huitt , Tim Ryan
St, Ferdinand Shrine Dig #1 St. Ferdinand
Ward 6 Florissant, MO 63031
Mr. Nimmons stated that he and Mr. Lum met with the Mayor, Shrine representatives, Bill Bray and Geri Debo, representatives from McCluer High School, Kerry Nichols, state archeologist Joe Harl, Joann Radetic, State Preservationist, regarding the St. Ferdinand Shrine dig. Mr. Nimmons thought they had a good discussion and could not understand why no one from the Shrine was present at the meeting tonight. He stated they asked for communication from the Shrine in regards to what they were doing and told them that LHDC would like to meet them on some middle ground. These requirements being: a fence around the dig site, the hole to be filled in after each season, signage in accordance with city regulations. The dig committee seemed receptive but it was discussed that they have been receptive before. Rob Huitt, McCluer North High School representative, stated once before that he would supply LHDC with a plan. Mr. Nimmons stated that he felt the dig would have to be shut down in the spring if no plans are submitted. He also felt that Geri Debo could help resolve any unresolved issues. A correction was made by Mr. Nimmons that these were two separate meetings, one being with the state representatives and the Mayor, the other being with the Shrine representatives and the Mayor. The meeting with the state representatives came after the meeting with the Shrine representatives. Shrine reps stated that there are many digs left open. Mr. Harl stated that no site can be left uncovered. There is only one dig site open and that is an active dig located by a bridge they are building. Mr. Harl also stated concerns about the number of kids on site (40).
It was decided that we continue the request for a Certificate of Appropriateness (COA) as no representative from the Shrine was present. It was also stated that continuing for a 6 month period the COA request could be considered denied. The Shrine can always reapply. My White stated LHDC has 90 days to consider a completed application unless otherwise extended. The original application was submitted 3/26/2010 but is considered incomplete. LHDC has 6 months to consider a completed application.
Ms. Debo, Shrine Representative, Rob Huitt, McCluer North (MNHS) Representative, Tim Ryan, McClue North Representative and 3 students from McCluer North arrived at 6:55 thinking the meeting started at 7:00 p.m. Introductions were made.
Ms. Debo stated that this was the third cycle for the dig and now they are being told about rules and regulations regarding the dig and that they have been desecrating the site. Ms Debo questioned the necessity for a Certificate of Appropriateness (COA). The dig was started as a cooperative effort between the Shrine and McCluer North High School as an educational tool, re-creating something that was historically correct for the history of the City and Shrine. At no point did MNHS feel that any special permission would be required because other excavation activity had been conducted on that site numerous times and no special permission was required.
Ms. Debo explained the MNHS program and the benefits it brought to students, The City of Florissant and the Shrine stating they were confused when they got reports that this was a terrible thing and they were doing all this wrong. They do not feel that their objective meets the guidelines of the COA.
Ms. Debo spoke about the city passing the Certified Local Government so that The City of Florissant would be in control of its historic areas, not being dictated by the state, and having a bit more leeway in decisions concerning our historic properties. Ms Debo gave several examples of work that was preformed on historic properties and the Landmarks commission nor the city gave approval for this work. Ms Debo explained that a COA is not realistic for what MNHS is trying to accomplish.
Mr. Huitt, representative from MNHS, explained the importance of educating the changing population of our younger Florissant residents about the history of the Shrine and introducing them to the history of The City of Florissant. He explained the excitement of the students as they discovered our history and spoke about the impact this will have on the future of our young people as they become adults. He also explained the class; stating that they only dig 3 days a week, Monday, Tuesday, & Wednesday about 1 hour a day. They only dig 6 weeks in the fall starting in September & October and again 6 weeks in the spring during April & May; digging a total of 12 weeks during the 9 month school year. Mr. Huitt also spoke about the dedication the students have towards the dig and how disappointed they would be if they would not be allowed to continue. Mr. Huitt made several comments about how the students were criticized for their efforts.
Mr. Ryan, representative from MNHS, gave a bit more detail about the class offered at MNHS and the expectation of this college level course. A handout was given by Mr. Ryan and explained in detail on how the dig is being carried out and exactly where the dig is happening. He also explained the impact the dig had on the students.
Mr. Nimmons stated that if this is the base that MNHS is starting from it is not going to fly. A COA is still required, it can be adapted, changed or fixed but it must be obtained. Ms Debo questioned why and for what. Mr. Nimmons said it would be required for the dig to continue citeing this key element: The Shrine site is considered to be an archeologically significant site, the entire Shrine grounds. The responsibility of LHDC is to protect that site. We must have certain parameters followed. Ms. Debo stated that the handout MNHS provided should be considered the COA. Mr. Nimmons stated that what MNHS provided was what LHDC has requested for the last year and the material provided will be significant to start the review process. Mr Nimmons did express his concern for the open site that remains during the off season and felt this issue will have to be addressed either by filling in the hole or building a structure over the site.
Students also spoke about the class and the knowledge they have obtained. Students were visibly shaken when they spoke about not being able to continue the course.
Sandra Delcoure, a resident a Shrine member, spoke about the qualifications of a true archeological dig and this dig was not meeting those requirements. It was stated by Ms. Debo that this was not considered an archeological dig but an educational dig and MNHS could not afford the requirements necessary to be considered a true archeological dig.
A discussion regarding filling in the dig site or helping with a structure to cover the site was held. Different ideas of acquiring support & financing to help comply with LHDC requests was discussed.
Mr. Nimmons asked what the archeological significance of the dig and the artifacts found were. Mr. Ryan stated that they are concentrating on two structures; the central chimney stack & wash basin. They discussed minor artifacts that have been found. None of significant value. During this discussion Ms Crank noted that the reason we are asking for the COA is that the Shrine is on the National Historic registry and is in the historic district of the city. She also questioned MNHS why the applications for the COA was not made a part of the curriculum as this is a very important procedure that would always be required for any archeological dig on a historic property. It was agreed that this was a very important but had never been asked of MNHS prior to this. NHMS was unaware that none of the reports or information that had been given to Bill Bray, representative of the Shrine, had been passed on to members of LHDC.
MNHS stated that they felt like LHDC was asking them for something different each time they met with them. LHDC responded that at in every meeting the same things have been requested. Mr Keil stated that he had been a member of the commission for 3 years and never at any time had anyone belittled the efforts of MNHS dig. Mr. Gunn agreed and stated that he understood the educational value of the program. Mr. Nimmons stated that the reason it wasn’t requested in the beginning was LHDC didn’t quite understand the responsibility that they had to the historic district and they were not informed by the Shrine that a dig was going to take place.
Mr. Nimmons stated that they had probably 3 concerns or questions that needed to be answered. Where exactly is the dig laid out? How does it relate to the boundaries? How is the site being secured? Mr Nimmons proposed that now since we have the document from MNHS and they have heard our concerns LHDC takes the time to figure out and review the submitted document so we may tighten up any additional details. LHDC would like to have this completed so MNHS can start digging by March 29th. Members of MNHS dig were excused.
MISCELANEOUS BUSINESS
Item 2 Review report on Grant for Archaeology from DNR
Mr. Nimmons asked if everyone on the commission received a copy of the letter that Phil Lum wrote to Joann Radetic. He stated that LHDC has been awarded a grant for $7,200.00 from the
State/Feds to be used.for an archeological area. At the Egan Center The City of Florissant has made space available to display some of the findings from the Spanish Land Grant Park dig. LHDC would also like to have a presentation by Joe Harl. This will be aired on the Florissant cable channel and LHDC would like to include Old Town Partners as well. Suggestions are welcome to any other group that might drum up a crowd. Joe Harl will do the set up of the display. Ms. Crank stated that the Mound City group have offered to help with the set up as well. Cases already purchased can not be reimbursed by grant money. Additional cases will be purchased. Grant money must be used as an educational tool. No date has been decided. LHDC has the grant; now a budget must be submitted for approval. Time frame looks like it will be well into summer before anything happens.
Item 3 Review & discuss options to encourage re-designation of Landmark Properties.
Mr. Nimmons said that the presentation might tie into an opportunity to encourage residents to designate or re-designate their historic property. LHDC will try to make it a very nice evening.
ANNOUNCEMENTS / COMMENTS
Mr. Nimmons discussed how we have turned the archeologists in the area on their ear. It does appear that MNHS has submitted something that will be able to be used to gain the COA. Ms. Crank asked for clarification on where exactly the dig was being done stating if they are only digging in the confounds of the foundation, digging out the basement, she does not have a problem with this. LHDC does not feel that this dig does not have any significant archeological impact on the site if it can be contained to the area they have described. Further review of what MNHS has submitted will be done and any questions or concerns will be addressed at a special meeting to be determined at a later date. Discussion was held about the fact that a COA must be obtained and Bill Bray, Geri Debo nor members of MNHS should ask for special permission to excuse them from this obligation. It was also discussed that the MNHS course has a concentration in many other areas not just those of an archeological impact. It was decided that a special meeting must be scheduled because the next regular meeting would be after the March 29th date. Bill White stated that a special meeting can occur to review an application for a COA when a regular scheduled meeting would create an unnecessary delay.
Ms. Crank requested that no additional holes be allowed to be dug, nor should any holes be allowed to be dug that could not be filled that year. Mr. Keil stated that a COA shall be issued for a period of 18 months and shall be renewable by the LHDC.
Correspondence within LHDC will be made by email itemizing those questions or concerns that LHDC has to ask members of the MNHS dig. All emails are being made a matter of public record. Emails with questions and concerns will be sent to members of MNHS and a special meeting will be scheduled to discuss and work out any problems. Emails should be made to Mr Nimmons copying Dianne Lehmann. No official business will be discussed via email but just questions and concerns. A formal meeting will be scheduled but no date has been decided.
A motion to adjourn the meeting by Mr. Miller was seconded by Mr. Gunn. The meeting was adjourned at 8:45.
Respectfully submitted:
Dianne Lehmann,
Recording Clerk
