OCTOBER 25, 2010
LANDMARKS AND HISTORIC DISTRICT COMMISSION
MINUTES

The Landmarks and Historic District Commission (LHDC) of the City of Florissant met at the Florissant City Hall on Monday October 25, 2010 in the second floor conference room at 6:30 p.m., with Howard Nimmons presiding.

On roll call the following members were present: Edward Keil, Kent Miller, Howard Nimmons & Curtis Gunn. Also in attendance were Cynthia Treiber, Recording Clerk, Philip Lum, Building Commissioner of Florissant, Bill Bray from the Shrine and residents Kay Spring, Rosemary Davison and Sandy Delcoure.  A quorum being present, the Chair declared the Landmarks and Historic District Commission (LHDC) was in session for the transaction of business.

INTRODUCTION AND WELCOME

Mr. Nimmons introduced Kay Spring, Rosemary Davison and Sandy Delcoure and welcomed them to the meeting.

OLD BUSINESS

NEW BUSINESS

APPROVAL OF 8/23/2010  MINUTES

Mr. Gunn stated that he would like to amend the minutes on page 6 the first paragraph and last line where it reads Mr. Curtis agreed should read Mr. Gunn. Mr. Gunn made a motion to approve the minutes as amended. Seconded by Mr. Miller, all members concurred. minutes were approved as amended.

MISCELANEOUS BUSINESS

Discussion of the application for a Certificate of Appropriateness at #1 St Ferdinand to allow for an Archaeological dig.

Mr. Nimmons stated that the Commission was here to discuss the Certificate of Appropriateness for #1 St. Ferdinand. Mr. Bray stated that the plan and what they were doing at the Shrine had more to do with the City of Florissant’s future than anything else. Mr. Bray stated that he had visited McCluer North High school where students had been digging and was informed by a teacher that they were providing experience with Archaology. Mr. Bray offered the school an area to dig at no cost located at the Shrine. Mr. Bray stated that the dig area had been burned down sometime in 1979 with two foundation areas that were open and uncovered with debris down in the foundation. Mr. Bray stated that there had not been very much discovered other than a perfume bottle and small items such as a piece of wire that would excite the kids. Mr. Bray stated that the three teachers involved, supervising the students had master degrees, one in archeology experience, one with English and the other in art. Mr. Bray stated that the students were seniors and honor students that had to learn the heritage of Florissant and the Shrine in order to do the archaology work. Mr. Bray stated that the dig had been going on for about three years and had been very successful with students re-visiting the site and even writing articles in their school newspapers. Further discussion was held as to reasons the dig at the Shrine benefits the City and the students. Mr. Bray stated that the City of Florissant benefits, by educating the students about their heritage and may convince them to remain living in Florissant and possibly stop the onslaught of people moving out of Florissant.

Mr. Bray stated that they were not trying to make a big archaological find and that there was a sign indicating the St. Ferdinand & McCluer North Excavation with a fence around the dig that apparently was proper according to Public Works. Mr. Bray stated that basically all that the students were doing was digging up what had already been there in 1979 and dumping it back in. Mr. Bray stated that anything they find would be displayed at the Shrine or shared with McCluer North.

Mr. Bray stated that he felt that the requirements from the City and the ordinance not allowing them to dig did not enter into play until someone did not like what they were doing. Mr. Bray stated that they would try and do what ever they could to make things satisfactory, however if they would have known about all these requirements in the beginning they may have never started the project. Further discussion was held regarding the requirements with Mr. Bray requesting that the dig be allowed to finish out this year and next fall since the kids are all lined out.

Mr. Lum stated that he would like to thank Geri Debo for bringing to his attention that when the City first issued a stop work order to the Shrine there may have been a lack of correct wording in the City Code. However, per a paragraph in the code book that stated if one or several actions were being done on a Re-designated Landmark, which the Shrine was, that a Certificate of Appropriateness would be required. Mr. Lum stated that initially the reason for the stop work order was paragraph “F” that stated for any construction, alteration or removal involving or earth disturbing activities that effect designated archeology resources. Mr. Lum stated that the key word Geri Debo pointed out was “designated” and that there are no designated Archeology resources in the City at present. However an application of a Certificate of Appropriateness is required before any alteration to a re-designated Landmark and he felt that he could not conscionably say to the Commission that a Certificate was not required because he felt that the activities affect the architecture of the property and therefore affects the appearance of the structure on the grounds.

Mr. Lum stated that there was a sign with no permit that identifies activities and that the City did talk to Mr. Bray regarding the fence however, the fence was strictly for public safety and the City did not approve it as a permanent item for the dig. Mr. Lum stated  that the Shrine did cooperate in completing a safety fence around the area. Mr. Lum stated that at the last meeting the Commission had agreed that a Certificate was still required by vote and there is an application that is pending however, is not complete. Mr. Lum stated that what was submitted was a simple description from the School about their program. Mr. Lum stated that here had been two archaeologists, one from UMSL school and another from the State that met with Shrine and both stated that this was not archaeology. Mr. Lum stated that per Commission discussion on the activities taking place at the Shrine it was decided that it would be in the best interests of the Commission to review a Certificate of Appropriateness in light of potential loss of buried history that the Shrine may need to protect. Mr. Lum stated that in his opinion a Certificate of Appropriateness still needs to be reviewed and approved by the Commission along with the stop work order being still in effect. Mr. Lum stated that the City had reports and complaints that work was still being done and even though the City did not actually witness that there were a lot of students and the teachers located at the site. Mr. Lum asked Mr. Bray if that was correct, Mr. Bray stated yes. Mr. Lum stated that a Certificate of Appropriateness is required to be obtained before any activity takes place. Mr. Lum forwarded a memo to Mr. Bray that had been sent to Sandy Delcoure in regards to the dig that states the following;
1) That the Shrine was a re-designated Landmark.
2)  Per the meeting with Mr. Bray and the archeologist who supported the intention to educate the students however, the dig was not actual archaeology.
3) Minutes from the March 25, 2010 meeting were sent to the Shrine which states that a stop work order was in effect until a Certificate of Appropriateness was obtained and that the dig could not continue without the certificate. Mr. Lum stated that the City had been waiting for a completed application and their concerns were that the site be protected from the loss of Historic artifacts, that some kind of archaeological practice be followed and that if the site continues to be left open it was subjected to further erosion and possible loss of artifacts. Mr. Lum stated that he would like Mr. Bray to give the Commission a chance to agree with him and work together on a friendly basis with the Shrine regarding the work that is being done. Mr. Lum stated to the Chairman that he had applied to DNR for a grant in the amount of $7, 500 dollars. Mr. Lum stated that he did not know if they would get the grant however if they did, part of the grant should be used to make an upgrade in the City code regarding archaeology.

Mr. Bray stated that the site was being protected from loss of historic artifacts and accepted archaeological practice was being followed and whatever artifacts were discovered were safe because they were in their hands. Mr. Lum asked Mr. Bray if he could give the Commission any documents that would indicate their process with a description and a map of the grounds with dimensions on them. Mr. Lum stated that with no map or plans with dimensions showing where they were digging the fence and the sign could possibly be over lapping an area that might be sensitive or  on someone else’s property. Mr. Bray stated that they would not do a survey unless they got some of the grant money. Further discussion was held on what information the Commission was looking for with Mr. Bray agreeing to get with the teachers involved and provide a drawing with the dimensions, documentation on where the artifacts would be displayed and how the dig would be protected along with completed Certificate of Appropriateness application. Mr. Nimmons stated that the information they had given was suggestions from the State and that the Commission needed something from the Shrine with the information that the State had suggested in the outline. Mr. Nimmons stated that in process maybe the students should be educated in all the procedures that are required for an archaeological dig.  Mr. Nimmons stated that the Commission wanted to work with the Shrine, however, needed documentation. Mr. Miller stated that besides just a drawing with dimensions, the Commission would like documentation to the answers that the State had documented with narrative descriptions. Mr. Miller stated that the documentation could be from the teachers with information such as how artifacts that may be found were going to be handled. Mr. Bray stated that he would go over the document from the State and would figure it out. Mr. Nimmons stated that a measured drawing with some high level of accuracy would be necessary. Further discussion was held regarding what the Commission was looking for with Mr. Lum stating that the Commission needed enough information so that they had full knowledge of what was going on in order to approve a Certificate Of Appropriateness. Mr. Bray stated that he thought the Commission already had this documentation but since they did not, he would take care of obtaining this information and submitting it to the Commission

Mr. Lum asked Mr. Bray if the teachers were there on site every day? Mr. Bray stated yes that the Archaeologist teacher Mr. Rob Huitt, Tim Ryan the Masters in English and the other lady teacher with the Masters in Art by the name of Delores Shine were there every day if anyone needed to speak with them. Mr. Bray stated that when this was approved it could be positive for the High School. Further discussion was held regarding the benefits of the dig with Mr. Bray stating that he had no gain personally and this was more trouble than he needed. Mr. Lum stated that the only thing left was the state of the stop work order that still existed and therefore would encourage Mr. Bray to complete the information as soon as possible and arrange another meeting as soon as the Chairman would like to call one. Mr. Bray asked if the City could allow for a thirty day extension to allow time to get his knee operated on and get back with the Board Members. Mr. Bray suggested the students continue with the dig until the semester was over and he would get back with the requested information, with intentions of getting the answers right away. Mr. Nimmons stated that there was a stop work order out there and by continuing to do work it may be harmful to the site. Mr. Nimmons asked if there was any way the kids could be pulled off the site and use them to help assemble the documentation. Mr. Bray stated that he would meet with the teachers, however, he felt that there was no work to be done by the students. Mr. Lum stated that when he had met with the teachers they had indicated that there had been research on the project and maybe would just need to be put this information together and submit it to the Commission. Mr. Bray stated that he would try to gather the information within a week. Mr. Nimmons asked if the Commission would be available in a week for a meeting. The Commission members all concurred with the meeting not necessarily having to be on a Monday. Mr. Nimmons stated that the Commission will be waiting to hear from Mr. Bray to schedule the next meeting. Mr. Bray stated that the teachers were qualified to obtain certain information and he would do the other part and submit it as soon as possible. Mr. Bray stated that one of the concerns was the cost of a survey. Mr. Lum stated that there were different levels of surveys and if they had an old survey where he knew where the existing point was with the property lines, it would most likely be acceptable.

Mr. Nimmons asked if there were any further comments. Kay Spring stated that Mr. Bray could call the Public Works Department and get a locator number in order to obtain a site plan from St. Louis County. Mrs. Spring stated that he could even go on the internet and pull up a site plan. Mr. Lum stated that in his experience with St. Louis County the aerial photograph with the property lines and a written description with no dimensions was offered. Mr. Lum stated that the County information was not real accurate, but better than what they had.

Mr. Nimmons asked the Commission members if they were ok with everything, all members concurred. Mr. Kiel asked if the Commission still wanted the answers to all the questions that were listed in the letter from the State. Mr. Bray stated that he never received that letter,  Mr. Nimmons forwarded him a copy of the letter with the questions. Mr. Bray asked if the signage required a permit. Mr. Lum stated that any sign in the City is required to have a permit. Mr. Lum stated that the Public Works Department would cooperate in issuing a permit at no cost, however, the plans and application would still need to reviewed. Further discussion was held regarding signage with Mr. Lum stating that pretty much any sign in the City is required to have a permit. Mr. Lum stated that the other issue was the fence and that the City only required it for safety reasons and did not approve it. Mr. Bray stated that he would review the fence issue with the Board as to what they wanted to do about the fencing. Mr. Bray stated that the excavation that they were doing was intended to continue every year five days a week from 12:45 to 1:45 p.m. and he was not sure if the teachers would going to be there during the summer. Mr. Bray stated that the fence was that orange plastic with a wire on the top and that they were maintaining it. Mr. Lum stated that it was good to protect the public, however, it had an adverse visual effect if someone was viewing the property. Mr. Nimmons asked if the issue about securing the site for winter was one of the questions. Mr. Lum stated yes, that was one of the first questions asking how they would maintain open excavations left in the ground. Further discussion was held regarding the excavation site with Mr. Bray stating that they would address the issues with the board on more of the long term actions. Kay Spring stated that chain link fences were not permitted. Mr. Nimmons asked if there were if any further questions or comments for Mr. Bray. Being none Mr. Nimmons asked Mr. Bray to let him know when he had all the information gathered in order to plan the next meeting.

ANNOUNCEMENTS / COMMENTS

Mr. Nimmons asked if anyone had any further business. Mr. Lum stated that there were some training opportunities coming up for the Commission members if they were interested and went over the different opportunities.  Mr. Nimmons asked if there was any further business. Kay Spring stated that she was on a Committee with the Shrine and had concerns about some proposed treatment on the brick and did anyone have any information about how not to treat brick.. Mr. Lum stated that he would probably have something. Further discussion was held regarding the treatment of certain bricks with Mr. Lum stating that he would forward what information he could come up with. Mr. Nimmons asked if there was any further business, being none Mr. Nimmons made a motion to adjourn the meeting. Seconded by Mr. Miller, all members concurred, meeting was adjourned.

 

 

Respectfully submitted:

 

Cynthia A. Treiber,
Recording Clerk