NOVEMBER 22, 2010
LANDMARKS AND HISTORIC DISTRICT COMMISSION
MINUTES

The Landmarks and Historic District Commission (LHDC) of the City of Florissant met at the Florissant City Hall on Monday November 22, 2010 in the second floor conference room at 6:30 p.m., with Howard Nimmons presiding.
 
INTRODUCTION AND WELCOME

Mr. Nimmons introduced Sandy Delcoure a Florissant resident representing herself, and Gretchen Crank who is a new member of the Commission. Mr. Nimmons stated that Mrs. Crank has been an active participant in the Historic Preservation of the Community for many years.

On roll call the following members were present: Gary Meyer, Howard Nimmons, Kent Miller, Curtis Gunn & Gretchen Crank. Also in attendance were Cynthia Treiber, Recording Clerk, Philip Lum, Building Commissioner of Florissant. A quorum being present, the Chair declared the Landmarks and Historic District Commission (LHDC) was in session for the transaction of business.

APPROVAL OF 10/25/2010 MINUTES

Mr. Nimmons asked if there were any additions, changes or corrections to the minutes. Being none Mr. Miller made a motion to accept the minutes as submitted. Seconded by Mr. Meyer, all members concurred to approve the minutes as submitted.

OLD BUSINESS

NEW BUSINESS

MISCELANEOUS BUSINESS

Discussion of the application for a Certificate of Appropriateness at #1 St Ferdinand to allow for an Archeological dig.

Mr. Nimmons stated that at the last meeting the Commission had asked Mr. Bray from representing the Friends of  St. Ferdinand Shrine to work with the teachers from McCluer North and put together a good description of their plan for the project complete with a measured drawing. Mr. Nimmons stated that Mr. Bray had delivered plans to Mr. Lum and himself, however the plans were not what the Commission had requested, especially after the Commission had given an example of what they needed. Mr. Nimmons stated that therefore they invited the teachers from McCluer North,  Mr. Huitt & Mr. Ryan to meet with them to discuss what the Commission was requiring. Mr. Ryan did not attend the meeting, however Mr. Huitt did. Mr. Huitt greed that the plans were not a very good submittal however he had prepared them on a very short notice.
Mr. Nimmons stated that he was personally surprised that Mr. Huitt did not have any other submittals on the project before the Commission had asked for it. Mr. Nimmons stated that when he had asked about anything such as a lesson plan, Mr. Huitt had nothing.

Mr. Miller asked if the teachers had seen the write up outline from the State Archaeologist. Mr. Nimmons stated that Mr. Huitt claimed that he had not seen it, so he gave him a copy. Mr. Nimmons stated that in the course of the meeting there was discussion about the site being open over the winter and Mr. Huitt expressed the problem with shutting down the site and filling the digs was that it would take so much time to re-dig the site when they would start up again in the Spring. Mr. Lum passed out the paper work that was submitted by the teachers and stated that Mr. Huitt was given limited instructions from Mr. Bray. Mr. Lum stated that with the submittal there were a couple of drawings, one prepared by the school without any dimensions supplemented by measurements of the back of the Shrine property which was prepared by Mr. Bray. Mr. Lum stated that the only dimensioned drawing submitted indicated at best was only two feet from the Knights of Columbus property and at worst on the property line. Mr. Lum stated that he thought the Commission would need a better drawing to assure that the dig was on their own property.

Mr. Lum stated that Mr. Bray and Mr. Nimmons were present at the 2003 re-designation meeting where according to the Historic Building Survey Inventory the entire site should be considered an important Archeological site. Mr. Lum stated that he thought that it was incumbent of the petitioner to prove their activity was, (1) not an archeological dig and (2) that the dig was not causing any harm. Mr. Lum stated that according to the re-designation documents that the whole site was archeologically important. Mr. Nimmons stated that one of the things about the site was that there were either one or two buildings that had been destroyed by fire in 1976 and that all the debris had been pushed into the foundation and leveled off. Mr. Nimmons stated that he had written to the State Archeologist and asked if the site had been destroyed by fire and there had been a lot of disturbance to the ground would the site carry the same significance as an archeological site. Mr. Nimmons stated that the State’s response was yes, it was a very valuable site and the debris from the fire could have been looked at to determine what kind of building material was used along with additional archeological information that could have been obtained. Mr. Nimmons stated that he had also asked about the site being open with the response from the State representative stating that it was extremely unheard of not closing a site and that he had never seen a site that was never closed.

 Further discussion was held regarding the details of the program with Mr. Nimmons stating that he wondered if the program was appropriate for high school students to be doing if they could not devote more time and felt that restrictions should apply to the program. Mr. Nimmons stated that Mr. Huitt was given a definition of the level of professionalism that the Commission wanted that came from the Department of Natural Resources and was going to match up his resume with this information. Mr. Nimmons stated that in his opinion he would like to see the site closed and that he had contacted Kerry Nichols from the State as to how to close it, however it was the Commission’s decision as to what they would like to do. Mr.  Nimmons stated that if the site was closed that when and if the Mr. Bray or the school would like to continue with the project they would have to submit plans before the Commission in order to continue. Mr.  Nimmons stated he had been down at the site and the fencing not only looked unsightly but was dangerous and not secure.

Mr. Nimmons asked the Commission members for their input. Mr. Miller stated that he would like to know if there was a way to fill the site without filling in everything and if the site could be kept site secure with a smaller area that would not be so unsightly. Mr. Nimmons stated that the representative from the State had stated that he had not ever seen a site that was ever done that way. Mr. Nimmons stated that the suggestion to fill the dig was by putting tarps into the ground and then filling with dirt. Mr. Nimmons stated that he liked the idea of limiting the area where the students worked and that forty kids at one time meant that they were everywhere including up against the property line. Mrs. Crank stated that the Spanish Land grant dig was done by professional Archeologists thru the Archeology Research Center. Mrs. Crank stated that she was there every day and since she was not trained to dig she did no digging however was trained to do screening and if anything was found was carefully removed and turned over to the Archeologist. Mrs. Crank stated that each time they dug the site they would close the site by putting a tarp down and then filled it in with dirt which could be filled in by anyone. Mrs. Crank stated that it did not take very much time to dig out what was filled and resume digging. Further discussion was held regarding the dig at the shrine compared to the dig at the Spanish Land Grant. With the Commission agreeing that the dig site at the Shrine was a larger site, unsightly and unsafe and if the project was going to continue would it need to be more organized?

Mr. Miller stated that one of his concerns was if the items being dug up were just a bunch of junk or could they have some kind of archeological meaning and if so could in the future someone hold the City liable for allowing an improper dig. Mr. Miller stated also if someone was to fall in one of the ditches could the City be held liable. Mr. Lum stated that what was noted from the State was that a site could only be dug once, like a book that could be read once and if read properly allows future scientific and archeological research and if it is not read properly the first time then whatever information that was there would be lost. Mr. Nimmons stated that another thing was that the Shrine had a display of their findings however there was no indication of any documentation of those findings. Mr. Lum stated that a long time ago he had accompanied Mr. Hoffman to where the artifacts were from the Joel Harl dig and all the artifacts were scientifically in bank boxes with every item bagged and clearly marked that was published in a book along with a map where they came from. Mr. Lum stated he wondered if the site would have been properly excavated would they have found other items. Mr. Lum stated that he felt it was incumbent that the teachers and Mr. Bray to prove that there was no harm and no foul. Mr. Lum stated that there had been a breakdown of communication between Mr. Bray and the teachers and now he thought the teachers understood the document that was required and suggested that they submit that information at the January 2011 meeting.

Mr. Nimmons stated that he would love to give Mr. Huitt the opportunity to submit something however they are now two years into this project without anything and if they were doing the project up to standards this information would have been submitted three years ago. Mr. Lum stated that another suggestion from Judith Deel the other State Archeologist was that the site be closed down with tarps, along with straw bails then backfill so as the walls would not be so difficult to excavate next year. Mrs. Crank asked the Commission if they had ever considered getting a consultant or advisor that knew more about the project. Mrs. Crank stated that she felt this was a lot for the Commission and according to the guidelines they could request this of the Mayor. Mrs. Crank stated that according to the dig that she attended the dig at the Shrine was more like a treasure hunt. Mrs. Crank stated that the most important thing at the Spanish Land Grant dig was the report and what they had learned. Mr. Miller asked Mrs. Crank when the Spanish Land grant dig was conducted did she remember going thru the City before the dig. Mrs. Crank stated that she had appeared before the Commission and asked what they wanted them to do. Further discussion was held regarding what already had been done and how to remedy the situation. Mr. Meyer stated that it sounded to him if the Commission agreed was to fill in the site with tarps and wait until January for plans to be submitted and at that point determine whether or not the dig would be valid based on the plans submitted.

Mr. Lum stated that he had spoken with Joann Radetic regarding a grant and that the Mayor would be receiving a letter copied to him requesting a scope of work from the City to be eligible for a grant, which was for seventy five hundred dollars. Mr. Lum stated that a portion of the grant could be used by the Commission on the Shrine with the decisions regarding the dig and maybe a portion of the grant to be used to work on the code book. Mr. Lum stated that if they did get the grant, the Commission would need to meet to determine how to use the grant. Mr. Nimmons stated that there were other resources out there that would be willing to work with the school on this project such as UMSL; however the teachers kind of blew that off. Further discussion was held regarding the lack of participation from Mr. Bray and the school and what options the Commission could take with the Commission concurring that the site needs to be filled in appropriately and give them time to submit a plan. Mr. Nimmons stated that there would need to be some type of guidance and organization regarding the project such as how many kids would be at the site at one time and the time spent on the project. Discussion was held regarding how they would go about closing the site with different suggestions such as the City possibly closing the site, using the grant money to close the site or possibly individuals filling in the site.

Sandy Delcoure passed out pictures regarding some type of well that had been on the site stating that she was of the understanding that a lot of things had been thrown into the well and that there were a lot of questions that the school or Shrine should have answered before the dig started. Mr. Meyer stated that he thought maybe they were back to requesting Kerry from the State to recommend how to fill the site and have the school or the Shrine to submit a plan before they dig again. Mr. Lum stated that he would like to give them to January, because Joann Radetic & the State archeologist were going to be there next month to discuss the grant.  Mr. Nimmons stated that after the meeting with the State it might be the opportunity to take a little more time and give guidance how to shut the site down and then the Commission could determine how to fill the site. Mr. Nimmons stated that even though no one has fallen into the holes that the site was a safety issue. Mr. Meyer asked how many other places in the City could someone dig a hole three or four feet deep and just leave it open for three or four years? Mr. Lum asked that currently would the Commission want to leave the site open until the State Archeologist came and looked at it. Mr. Nimmons made a motion to recommend closing the St. Ferdinand Shrine dig site at the earliest convenience using guidance of the State Archeologist who would be in town in the month of December. Mr. Nimmons also stated that he had concerns that the site was a safety issue would require good Archaeological practice. Motion seconded by Gretchen Crank on roll call, Meyer yes, Nimmons Yes, Miller yes, Gunn yes and Crank yes.  Motion passed 5 to 0.

Review & discuss options to encourage re-designation of Landmark Properties.

Mr. Nimmons stated that there was to be a discussion, however he asked if the Commission would have any problem to continue this item to the next meeting. Mr. Miller made a motion to continue this item to the January 2011 meeting. Seconded by Mr. Meyer, all members concurred. Item continued to the next LHDC meeting.

ANNOUNCEMENTS / COMMENTS

Mr. Nimmons stated that there would most likely be no meeting in December and that Mr. Huitt was suppose to submit plans by the January meeting therefore discussions could be continued at that meeting. Mr. Nimmons stated that at the January meeting there would be the review of the request for a Certificate of Appropriateness for the dig at the St. Ferdinand. Mr. Nimmons asked if there was any further business. Being none Mr. Nimmons made a motion to adjourn the meeting. Seconded by Mr. Meyer, all Commission members concurred, meeting was adjourned.

 

 

Respectfully submitted:

 

Cynthia A. Treiber,
Recording Clerk